A Response To a Geocentrism Challenge By Robert Sungenis

A Response to the Geocentrism Challenge
of Robert Sungenis
of Catholic Apologetics International

Michael, thank you for your submission. But I'm sorry to have to tell you that your diagrams don't at all prove your contention.

First, you might want to read up on the relationship between Kepler and Tycho Brahe. You will find that it was Brahe who made all the meticulous chartings of the planets, not Kepler. Kepler actually confiscated Brahe's work after Brahe died. While Brahe was alive, he was using those very calculations to show that Geocentrism was the correct model. Before he died, Brahe insisted that Kepler use the calculations to continue the Geocentric position. Kepler, however, was influenced by other things. Since he was heavily into the occult, as was his mother, he was searching for "musical harmony" among the heavenly bodies. It was his opinion that a solar centered system coincided with that "musical harmony" as opposed to a geo-centered system. As such, Kepler's choice had little to do with evidence disproving the Geocentrism. The fact still remains that both Heliocentrism and Geocentrism work, mathematically and physically. Kepler's findings do nothing to disprove that fact.

Second, we have already dealt with Kepler's claims in our Science posts. I suggest that you consult them.

The first is at www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/geo25.html.

You wrote:

"Now the following can be seen above: Observations are made on the day that Mars returns to the exact same point in its orbit (here when it crosses the yellow line at the right. On those dates both the Sun and Mars are at the same fixed relative points, with the same distance between them. The Earth's position changes relative to both the Sun and Mars, tracing out an orbit around the Sun (proving heliocentrism).

This is nothing more than the retrograde motion of Mars as seen from earth. If you go to our posting on this subject you will see how retrograde motion is explained in the Geocentric system, which is at

www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/geo18.html.

You then write:

"Other points worth noting. Venus and Mercury are never observed very far from the Sun. Venus is always observed within 46° and Mercury within 28°, so they are only observed in the early morning or early evening (they basically rise and set with the sun). They are never seen on the opposite side of the earth from the sun. Venus and Mercury exhibit the full range of phases, like the moon, but the other planets do not. The reason for this is that Venus and Mercury have orbits closer to the Sun than the Earth (inferior orbits), the other planets have orbits farther away than the Earth (superior orbits).

Venus and Mercury both exhibit a full / gibbous phase when observed near the Sun, but farthest from the Earth. If they orbited the Earth (geocentric), we would never see a full phase when they are near the Sun. This proves that Venus and Mercury orbit the Sun, and not the Earth.

The problem with this, Michael, is that you are working with an incorrect model of the Geocentric system. In the Tychonic system, which we are using, all the planets orbit the sun, not the earth. It is the sun that orbits the earth, and carries the planets along with it. Thus, the diagram you showed which has Venus orbiting the earth is wrong, and that is why the model doesn't work for you.

As for the Geocentric explanation of the phases of Venus, it can be explained both from a Ptolemaic system and a Tychonic system.

First the Ptolemaic system.

Galileo had claimed that the Ptolemaic system could not account for the phases of Venus or Mercury. Actually, Galileo was partially correct. If one uses circular orbits for Venus and Mercury, the phases of the two planets do not appear. But if one uses elliptical orbits, as even Kepler did for the heliocentric system, then the phases of Venus and Mercury can be easily accounted for in the Ptolemaic system. Even the Jesuit astronomers who were challenging Galileo's findings knew this to be the case, and thus they submitted their evidence to the Inquisition, which also concluded that Galileo had no proof that only the heliocentric system worked. In fact, the only thing that Galileo's findings showed was that the epicycles in the Ptolemaic system were much larger than had previously been suspected.

As for the Tychonic model of Geocentrism, if one uses the same elliptical orbits of Kepler, the result is that two epicycles in the Ptolemaic system will translate into one ellipse, per planet, in the Tychonic system. Thus, around the sun, Mercury and Venus would each have a perigee and an apogee, and each locus of points along that polarity would show the respective phases of Mercury and Venus, as viewed from earth.

Thank you for your submission.

Robert Sungenis
Catholic Apologetics International
November 20, 2002